 Thread: Shoe Loss in Cartoons, Games, Movies, and Comics MegaThread |
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by grizzletoad1
Very interesting Nopperabo. I find it difficult to think that after so many years of being westernized that they would go back to the days before the 1850's when Japan was a feudal society. Just look at the difference between themselves and North Korea if they want a look into what a completely closed society would look like. I only hope is that that point of view is a fringe extreme one that would never gain traction in the mainstream like what happened to Iran in the 1970's or more recently in Afghanistan. I'm a conservative myself, but such extreme fundementalism is never the best idea for any society. |
I don't think anyone actually wants to go back to the feudal period. For one thing, in the feudal period the emperor actually had little to no political power. Power then rested with the Shogun, the head of the dominant samurai clan, (which during the relatively peaceful and stable Edo period when most of the social laws were finally codified, would have been the Tokugawas) And NO ONE is all that keen to abandon modern technology.
Rather, they seem to want something closer to how it was after the Meiji Restoration (186
but before the end of WWII, when Japan was both technologically growing AND rabidly nationalistic. I probably erred when I said they want isolation, what they really want is another shot at a pan Asiatic empire.
|
|
| Thread: Losing A Shoe In The Chase |
|
|
Come to think of it, Jack Nicholson did more or less the same thing when he was the Joker in the first Batman movie.
And actually, a calculating criminal might as well, provided he felt he had the time. After all, that shoe is a trace, physical proof that the target was there and was in distress. A calculating criminal might be aware of that, and make sure to pick it up in order to cover his tracks.
There is also the consideration of what he plans to DO with the target when he catches her. If he plans to kill her on the spot, it doesn't really make any difference. But if he is planning to take her alive, and then take her somewhere else, he may have to consider how to do that most efficiently. A woman in one heel is slow and clumsy, which, if he intends for her to walk wherever he is taking her may make getting her there harder AND more erratic (there is nothing like an unexpected trip to throw someone off their game and give the target a chance for escape.
Under those circumstances, he can, of course, simply remove her OTHER shoe, but depending on terrain, and in what condition the target needs to be in at the other end, that may not be a good option either (if she messes up her feet so badly she CAN'T walk, HE'S going to have to CARRY her.)
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss in Cartoons, Games, Movies, and Comics MegaThread |
|
|
We may have trouble with Japan as well in the middle future. The Japanese Government IS trying to do things to prop up the declining birthrate, but, in true Japanese Government fashion, the idea of loosening things up a little bit so that young people have TIME to meet and start families isn't one of them. There ideas tend to run more along the lines of building more "love hotels" and providing Japanese citizens with increased access to porn to get them in the mood. (both of which may up the birth rate a little but aren't going to do much in regards to making many more stable families.)
And however conservative Japan is now, there are a LOT of people (many in high places in government that they or their families have basically had since the end of WWII) who would like to see Japan go even FURTHER back in time, back to the days when the Japanese Emperor was not just a revered figure, but the actual end all be all ultimate government power with complete and sole authority to decide any laws and policy unilaterally. Many also want to expunge all non-pure Japanese from Japan* and go back to the days of total isolation of the nation, no one and nothing in, no one and nothing out. Most people know that is no longer feasible (for one thing, with its current population, Japan doesn't have enough arable land to adequately FEED everyone that lives there on their own). But many wish for such days, and propose ideas to get there (such as going back to dating things by the years of the emperor's reign, rather than the B.C.E.-C.E. system most of the rest of the world uses. **
So what I am concerned about is that the government might decide that the best way to solve the birth rate thing while maintaining a maximum amount of wa (social harmony and conformity) would be something along the lines of what WWII Germany refererred to as leibensborn, the forced impregnation of suitable females by chosen suitable males, with the resultant children being raised wholly by the state. In short a system where the state totally replaces the family as the method of education and rearing of the next generation, with the goal of making a totally homogenous society.
*Technically Japan has NEVER been wholly racially pure, because the racial majority Jomon people (who originally came from Korea) have always had to deal with the native Ainu people (who were already there). But a lot of Japanese discriminate against the Ainu pretty heavily anyway, and probably would have little problem kicking them out as well.
**As someone who collects Japanese books (but doesn't read Japanese) I can tell you how hard it is to date a book where the copyright and publication date are written in Kanji instead of Roman numerals (especially since the Japanese dating year starts on the day the new emperor takes the throne, so you can't simply count from one single date.)
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss in Cartoons, Games, Movies, and Comics MegaThread |
|
|
Well, THAT rabbit hole actually goes quite a bit deeper. In general Japanese high school students have it really tough. They aren't ALLOWED to date while they are in high school, since they are supposed to have 100% of their attention on their studies (they aren't allowed to have after school jobs either, for the same reason). They are under INCREDIBLE pressure to excel at absolutely everything, while simultaneously being encouraged (more along the lines of coerced) to be as conformist as possible (did you ever wonder WHY, Japanese schools all have school uniforms? It isn't because the school boards think they are nice to look at.) ANY form of individuality is discouraged (which, combined with the pressure to excel, works out to a sort of mutual paradox, how can you excel and conform at the same time? You can't be the best AND be average.) Their schools and teachers actively do things to make their lives as hard as possible, often on purpose (for example, most Japanese schools do not have air conditioning OR heating. This does save money for the schools, but the REAL reason according to many teachers is they want their students to suffer as much hardship as possible, so they will develop fortitude. Having students pass out from heatstroke or get frostbite (both of which happen with great frequency, is considered an acceptable cost for making sure the students learn to endure suffering.)
Moreover, this lack of romance thing extends WELL past High School in Modern Japan. As soon as they graduate, a student is expected to go to college (if they make it in) and apply themselves with the same 100% devotion to their studies there.) Then it's off to a job, where the same thing applies. It is only after you have had a job for a fairly long time, and are well set both financially AND position wise, that it is considered socially acceptable to go out and look for a spouse and have some kids (which, if you are a man, you probably won't have much interaction with, since your job is to keep devoting yourself to your job 100% and bring home as much money as possible.)
That's actually one of the major reasons Japan's population is dropping so rapidly, by the time they are done with work, most Japanese adults are too TIRED to go out looking for someone. The Japanese government is actually having to actively encourage people to have kids and not having a lot of luck with it.
This all comes to why there are some many school dramas in anime, they are wish fulfillment. They give the watchers a chance to peek into a world where it's OKAY, to admit you have a crush on someone else in high school and act on it, where it is PERMISSABLE for Dads to decide their kids come first.) The let them have a taste by proxy of the world they would LIKE to live in, as opposed to the one they HAVE to.
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss Significance in Art |
|
|
Remembered a few more
in Islamic tradition, being seen in one shoe is considered to be a sign of sloppiness and unkemptness, and the Koran specifically prohibits it (then again, I have also seem pieces that claim that the rise in one shoe wearing is predicted in the Koran, so I'm not sure which is correct.)
St. Wilgefortis is sometimes depicted with one shoe due to the legend of the Saint and the Fiddler (Basically the legend goes that an impoverished fiddler, having no other gift to offer at a shrine to St. Wilgefortis, played his fiddle in front of the statue. The statue then kicked off one of it's golden shoes toward the fiddler in reward. The fiddler then went to sell the gold shoe so he could buy some food, but was caught by the authorities, who accused him of stealing it from the shrine. When the man proclaimed his innocence, and told his tale, the authorities did not believe him and dragged him back to the shrine to prove he was lying. When they got there, the fiddler again played for the statue, and the statue kicked off it's other golden shoe in front of all assembled, thus proving the man' innocence.)
The Taoist immortal Lan Caihe is usually depicted with one shoe and one bare foot, and is gender ambiguous.
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss Significance in Art |
|
|
Hi all,
Given the subject has come up a few times (and I have had to explain it a few times as well), I thought it might be useful to have a thread covering what shoe loss actually SIGNIFIES in art through the ages, as it will make a lot of art easier to understand (as well as possibly give people a few more ideas of where to look.) I'm leaving out the Cinderella stuff, since it is so well known. Here is what I know.
In Greco-Roman art, being shown with a single shoe (or more accurately, single sandal), symbolized "Death or Glory", the concept of a war or act where defeat was not an option. This comes from the myth of Jason (who famously lost a sandal helping an old lady cross a stream, thereby fulfilling the prophecy that a man with one sandal would come to one day rule Thessaly).
In early Jewish culture (and for a time Christian as well) shoes often symbolized ownership. At that time when a man married a woman, the father would hand one of his daughters shoes to the new husband who would then tap the bride on the head with it, to symbolize the transfer of ownership. This later evolved in the tradition of the bride throwing her right shoe into the crowd and whoever caught it was the next to marry (now done with the bouquet), to the custom of pelting the married couple with old shoes, to the modern one of tying old shoes to the rear bumper of the married couples car.
There was also a long held (and still held by some Orthodox Jews) that, when a woman wants to get out of marrying her dead husbands brother (which is required by law if the man left no son), the couple will go to a rabbi with the man wearing a special extra large shoe on his right foot. In front of the rabbi the woman will then pull the shoe off. If the man relinquishes ownership of the shoe, he relinquishes ownership of the woman, and she is free to marry whoever she chooses.
In the Rococo period, shoe loss by a woman in a picture was often considered a sign of a desire to have a romantic fling. Probably the most common examples of this are Fragonard's The Swing and the French one of the woman on the bridge having her shoe retrieved by a young man from the river below.
In the colonial period, showing a child with one shoe on and one off was meant to show innocence. In particular it was used to show a return to a natural state, and, as such was used as a sort of code in colonial portraits to show that the child being pictured had died young, and the portrait was posthumous.
This concept transferred over to the days of early photography. If you see an old photograph of an apparently sleeping child (or even one that just looks a little dull). with one shoe on, the child in the picture is actually probably deceased (the Victorians were quite comfortable taking photos of, and with their dead relatives.). Often, it will be a post-autopsy photo.
In 1930-50's art (especially "pulp fiction illustrations and covers) showing a woman removing her shoes symbolized her getting comfortable (and possibly preparing for a night of passion). Shoe LOSS often indicated danger (by making the now one heeled woman more vulnerable.)
That pretty much covers everything I know.
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss in Cartoons, Games, Movies, and Comics MegaThread |
|
|
Well, when you consider that we ARE talking about a fetish, there are a lot of people who would say the whole site is immoral in the first place.
And the moment that someone manages to pass a law to requires people to get the consent of the person depicted in order to use their image for erotica (or, I imagine, in the case of fictional characters, the permission of the artist), pretty much ALL outside material on this site becomes trouble. And I am sure such laws are being proposed (if not already enacted in some areas.)
The irony with anime of course, is that a lot of the artists would have little to no problem with giving their OK. Age of consent in Japan is 13 (though most prefectures add laws to bump it up to 15-16) And a lot of anime artists are just glad of the increased exposure (that is more or less the reason Doujinshi is allowed to exist in the fist place.) So basically, we are stuck in the problem of the origination country of the material being far more tolerant than ours, and having to sort of filter everything ourselves.
I think the best idea would be like is done on some of my other sites, when I doubt, PM one of the more senior members and ask them if it is OK (I know this puts more work on you, Bosart, but I would hope you would be willing to take it on.)
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss in Cartoons, Games, Movies, and Comics MegaThread |
|
|
It also may have been a classist thing. By the 1930's, CERTAINLY by the 1940's, high button shoes had been out of fashion for almost 20-30 years (hence the then common expression at the time to dismiss an idea as old-fashioned, "That went out with button shoes.").
About the ONLY people who still wore them were some rural people (particularly older ones). So wearing them developed as part of the "rural hick" sort of image. When they started to modernize Olive's image, the boots had to go.
That also would explain the lack of stockings. Nylon was pretty new by then (and during the war reserved for the army). And silk stockings were expensive. So again, no stockings=poor rural.
Also, the inside joke about Olive Oyl's boots (that she wore them because she had ENORMOUS feet) was largely forgotten by the public.
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss in Cartoons, Games, Movies, and Comics MegaThread |
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by Mandrake
| quote: |
Originally posted by Nopperabo
| quote: |
Originally posted by Mandrake
Nice, it might not have been in the jungle, but they were in some sort of wilderness with a large cliff. In fact it may have involved a plane crash, but I can't remember for sure. She was getting dragged by something and her shoe comes off, or at the very least pops partially off, I think it was a strappy shoe and it was pretty clear that she was wearing stockings in this (you could see the rht). It was also in color, but it looked like one of the every early color popeye cartoons from the 30s or 40s as popeye was wering his blue sailor outfit although it may have originally been in black and white and was colorized later. Wish I remembered the name. |
If it was only a dangle, it's probably the same one I was referring to with the caveman/wild man. |
Possibly, what was the name of that one? |
Like I said before, I don't remember, I just remember it exists.
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss in Cartoons, Games, Movies, and Comics MegaThread |
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by Mandrake
Nice, it might not have been in the jungle, but they were in some sort of wilderness with a large cliff. In fact it may have involved a plane crash, but I can't remember for sure. She was getting dragged by something and her shoe comes off, or at the very least pops partially off, I think it was a strappy shoe and it was pretty clear that she was wearing stockings in this (you could see the rht). It was also in color, but it looked like one of the every early color popeye cartoons from the 30s or 40s as popeye was wering his blue sailor outfit although it may have originally been in black and white and was colorized later. Wish I remembered the name. |
If it was only a dangle, it's probably the same one I was referring to with the caveman/wild man.
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss in Cartoons, Games, Movies, and Comics MegaThread |
|
|
I don't remember the NAME of the one with the construction site, but I remember it's one where Bluto is a hypnotist and has hypnotized her (which is how she winds up on the construction site in the first place).
And I'm not sure about the jungle one, but I do remember one where she is dragged away by a caveman and is dangling one of her shoes.
I think there was also one that opened with her knitting, and taking her foot in and out of her boot in order to use it as a third hand.
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss in Cartoons, Games, Movies, and Comics MegaThread |
|
|
Don't I know it.
It doesn't hurt that they have single shoe as an actual SEARCH term, which makes finding things a lot easier. (though the fact that it has now split into three separate search parameters, single shoe, single boot, and single sandal makes things a bit more complicated.) Add on shoe dangle and shoes removed, and you cover most losses as well.
The sheer vastness also is handy for someone like me, who has become sort of jaded, and needs a little more than a mere shoe loss to find a picture particularly interesting.
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss Mandela Effects |
|
|
Well, if you want to go historically, then there are limits on how tight and thin one can go. We are talking circa 1850's-1860's after all, so pre-nylon. And Alice is a child (even if a well off one) so no silk (and certainly not for day to day clothes!) So we are probably talking cotton.
It's a bit like how, however Disney tried, Alice's shoes in the cartoon movie aren't really period accurate either. The way they are drawn, Alice is wearing typical patent leather Mary Janes, which would have been contemporary in 1951). But they wouldn't have been in the 1850's. For one thing, they technically couldn't be Mary Janes back then, for the simple reason that that name didn't exist yet (that style of shoe may be ancient, but the actual name didn't exist until it was trademarked by the Buster Brown Shoe Company in 1904). And while patent leather DID exist (it has since 1793) it wasn't widely used for ornamental use yet (being more commonly used for wet weather gear). At that time, Alice's shoes would more likely be something like kidskin or Morocco leather (still shiny, but not nearly as shiny as patent.)
Secondly, if you look at the original illustrations by Tenniel (which actually are NOT the originals, as Carrol illustrated the original written manuscript himself, but they are the ones most people know.) one thing you quickly notice is how tight Alice's shoes are and how thin their outline actually is compared to her foot, and how thin the strap is. This would also fit with shoes of this time, which were made of much softer leathers and were expected to more or less fit around the foot like a glove (This is also one of the reasons behind the myth that people in the past had much smaller feet than people now; we're actually using a different standard as to sizing.)
For a long time, I also thought that they had also gotten wrong the fact that Alice's shoes had heels, even low ones. Most children's' shoes of that period had completely flat soles. However I looked up a few of the original illustrations (specifically the one from Alice Through The Looking Glass where she is actually GOING through the mirror., where you can see the bottom of her shoe) and in Tenniel's case, she does have low heels.
Finally, despite the fact that BOTH Tenniel AND Carrol himself drew Alice in them, (Carrol's Alice illustrations show Alice with what are basically flats, no strap.) There might be some question as to whether a girl like Alice would be WEARING that type of shoes for an outing outside. Shoes like that were more for indoor or maybe city wear, farther away from mud and dirt. Outside on a summer's day, Alice would probably have worn boots. which would have been more secure and more importantly, much more able to keep her white stockings from getting mud and dirt stains on them (remember, this is also pre-washing machines, and getting white cotton stockings white again after they got dirty was HARD WORK, even if you DID have servants to do it.)
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss Mandela Effects |
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by Nopperabo
There's a fragment of a song from a cartoon that is stuck in my head that I haven't been able to trace yet (it would be in some cartoon movie from the 1980's or earlier, so it probably wouldn't be anything you would know either).
|
I found it! I finally tried putting the lyrics I remembered in google, and it popped right up. (it's from a movie called Pinocchio and the Emperor of the Night.)
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss Mandela Effects |
|
|
| quote: |
Originally posted by FootsieFan357
If you're worried about the cel fading, you don't have to look at it. I believe you, and I think it's amazing how you were able to get your hands on the cel in the first place. |
Oh, if you are old enough and look diligently enough, you can find all kinds of really odd and rare stuff. My Oz album contains the original painting for a proposed Wizard of Oz edition by Little Elf Books, illustrated by H. Flamm, which I picked up for a song on ebay (actually I picked up the whole book rough out, but after I put the Dorothy melting the witch picture (i.e. the shoe loss picture) in my album (it had already fallen off the mockup backing) I wasn't all that careful with the rest of the book, and they all crumbled.) One of my Japanese Oz manga books (no shoe loss picture) is not only a first edition, but a SIGNED FULL COLOR first edition (the re-print, which is much commoner is only in color for the fist twenty or so pages).
And I SAW, but never got to bid on, the auction of the ORIGINAL copy of the famous Peanuts comic page where Snoopy steals Lucy's shoe. (I think it's in a museum now) But then I never really wanted that one, since it's just the black and white, and as far as I am concerned one black and white is as good as another, be it original or not (Now if I ever found an original newspaper printing in COLOR of the panel, that would be another matter*
Let's see what else might be rare. There are a few official Associated Press photos in my collection of celebrities, including one of Shirley Temple ( I actually saw a second Shirley Temple one, but wasn't able to get that one.)
There are also some old candid photos of non famous people, which I assume are all unique (in that I can't see a reason why someone would take more than one of any of them). Ditto a couple of negatives which I sort of got by mistake (in both cases, the auction seller put up the POSITIVE image from the negative rather than the negative as it was, and I wasn't paying enough attention to notice.
*When the Complete Peanuts began to come out (in which all the Sunday panels WERE colored, as they appeared in the actual papers, I had always planned to pick up the volume with the panel when it came out. But I never got around to it(and I'm not sure I remember the exact date anyway.)
|
|
| Thread: Shoe Loss Mandela Effects |
|
|
As I thought I said before, I'm not sure WHAT it was made for. THEY said "book", but they didn't say WHICH book. Over the years Disney has published SO MANY books, that it could be from literally ANYWHERE.
I don't think it's from the movie, since it isn't staged like the part of the movie where Alice meets the Cheshire Cat. That's in a forest, the cell shows them in a field with the Cheshire Cat (or rather his smile and disappearing pink smoke puff) over a piece of fence. Also the style isn't quite right (a movie cell would have more shading).
At the moment, my two best guesses are that.
1. It IS for a book, but not the Alice in Wonderland story book. Rather it's from one of those innumerable other story books that Disney put out with other short stories. Alliteratively, it could be from one of the Disney illustrated dictionaries/encyclopedias. I once got one of those in Korean, and found a shoe loss picture in it for the entry "lost" (it's of Grandma Duck).
Or it could be from nothing at all that was published. After all they said it was made for the development of a book, they never said it was ever actually used.
2. The cell is from one of the various TV commercials Disney made when the movie came out, both to advertise the movie and to sell sponsored products (I think Jello or some sort of pudding). Some of those commercials featured characters that did not appear in the actual movie, like the Gryphon and the Mock Turtle (just like one of the smaller published story books has a picture of the Jabberwocky, and another has Humpty Dumpty, who don't appear in the movie either.)
Some of those commercials also feature art done by animators OTHER than those who worked on the movie, and it sometimes shows. Somewhere on Yahoo! Japan (basically, think Japanese eBay) I saw a cell from one of the commercials done (I think) by the person who did the animation for Sleeping Beauty, of Alice on a bridge over a stream. A LOT of details are different in that, Alice has a black bow (I think) instead of her black hairband, she's taller and looks older, the dress is a darker shade of blue and (probably the most interesting fact to people on this site) her shoes are ankle strap, rather than instep strap. If I recall the price they were asking was about $500 (which an Alice expert I know of said was ludicrous)*
Oh and I remembered one other thing. If I recall, Alice's stockings are a lot tighter than they appear. In my cell, I think you can see Alice's toe lines on her stocking foot (maybe I'll check tonight, when the sun is down and there is less risk of light damage.)
*Before you ask, I paid $75 for my cell (with so many items up, people were busy bidding on other, more desirable cells and I was able to sneak in). But bear in mind, we are talking $75 twenty years ago!
|
|
|
